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News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Thu May 09, 2024 6:35 am

I've just finished watching episode 17 of Car Robots, so I've properly met Black Convoy. Gotta say I wish his dialogue was better. I like him a lot - he kicks a ton of ass - but he's always going on about "the flowers of evil" needing to bloom.

Man. I was hoping for more ... badassery? I guess something's lost in the cultural exchange. Looking back, I remember Black Lio Convoy also held a rose so maybe there's a theme I'm just not getting.

Maybe I would have gotten more out of English dub this time around, but I really believe in experiencing shows the way they were meant to be experienced.

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Tue May 14, 2024 7:39 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Maybe I would have gotten more out of English dub this time around, but I really believe in experiencing shows the way they were meant to be experienced.

Could've just watched both sub and dub back-to-back. That's what I did when Car Robots was first subbed in full, as I wanted to see what all was changed between the two versions after having been able to only watch the dub for so long.

Although, "experiencing shows the way they were meant to be experienced" is gonna get real complicated by the time you get to Galaxy Force, as one could argue that the English dub "Cybertron" version is a closer representation of Hasbro's original creative vision for the series, as it was Hasbro's then-current design director Aaron Archer who first conceptualized what would ultimately become the third installment in the Unicron Trilogy, but with the show's Japanese production company largely ignoring much of those plans and opting to instead do their own thing, requiring Hasbro to play a haphazard game of damage control with both the English dub and several pieces of newly-created tie-in material in order to better realign the series with their original plans for it as another sequel series.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed May 15, 2024 8:37 pm

If I watched the sub and dub back to back I don't think I'd enjoy the show. I think it'd be too similar of an experience. I think I'd get bored.

I'm aware of Cybertron's odd nature. That's this weird standalone series in Japan. Despite Megatron sporting Unicron bits. BUT. The Japanese show did come first. So those depictions of the characters are the primary versions. So, if I'm gonna choose, I'll still choose to follow that version. Even if they did botch the original intent with the English dub trying to do damage control. It's still, primarily, a Japanese show. First and foremost.

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed May 15, 2024 8:57 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:If I watched the sub and dub back to back I don't think I'd enjoy the show. I think it'd be too similar of an experience. I think I'd get bored.

In my case, I had fun noticing all the differences between RID and CR, as even the music and sound effects were completely changed. And certain shots were rearranged or even cut out completely. It felt like two different experiences. Not to mention the three episodes each version had that didn't exist in the other version.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I'm aware of Cybertron's odd nature. That's this weird standalone series in Japan. Despite Megatron sporting Unicron bits. BUT. The Japanese show did come first. So those depictions of the characters are the primary versions. So, if I'm gonna choose, I'll still choose to follow that version. Even if they did botch the original intent with the English dub trying to do damage control. It's still, primarily, a Japanese show. First and foremost.

Erm, the whole Unicron Trilogy was a pretty atypical case when it came to anime development, as they were each a co-production with Hasbro still having some say over the story. Like, the giant Supreme class Starscream toy that Hasbro put out in their version of the toyline was only added into the show later per Hasbro's initiative and never got sold in the Takara line proper, only reaching Japan as an import in Hasbro packaging sold as a Toys R Us exclusive. Likewise, several Hasbro-only toys were added into the Energon/Superlink and Cybertron/Galaxy Force cartoons despite never being sold in the Takara toylines (like Supreme class Starscream, these toys were instead Hasbro-packaged imports). It was a very unusual time.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed May 15, 2024 9:29 pm

Ah, I remember that guy. And a bit about that whole time. It's right when I started collecting. MP-01. The original reissue lines. I remember being blown away that Unicron finally got a figure. What a time!

Well, I guess I'll get to it when I get to it, but in my eyes, it's still aired in Japan first making it an anime first. It may have gone against the original intent, with the toys also being really skewed (re:Megatron, as mentioned), but I still kinda see it as anime first.

Unless you're saying a more true viewing experience is watching it as Armada (J), Energon (J), and then Cybertron (E). (I know their names are different in Japan, but I don't recall them offhand) I'm only watching one version of all of these (after all, I have quite the journey to go through). So I gotta pick just ONE. I don't think I'll ever be a true TF expert, but I'll settle for catching up on all the stuff I just didn't bother watching and familiarizing myself with material outside my comfort zone.

But you're saying it's actually better in this case to at least watch Cybertron over the Japanese version?

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed May 15, 2024 9:46 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Unless you're saying a more true viewing experience is watching it as Armada (J), Energon (J), and then Cybertron (E). (I know their names are different in Japan, but I don't recall them offhand) I'm only watching one version of all of these (after all, I have quite the journey to go through). So I gotta pick just ONE. I don't think I'll ever be a true TF expert, but I'll settle for catching up on all the stuff I just didn't bother watching and familiarizing myself with material outside my comfort zone.

But you're saying it's actually better in this case to at least watch Cybertron over the Japanese version?

Ooh, I never thought of doing that, going J-J-E. But, no, I wouldn't advise doing that. The Cybertron dub was designed to connect to the Armada and Energon dubs, which also had their fair share of differences from the Japanese versions.

Though, funnily enough, the English version of Armada started and finished before the Japanese version, with only 12 episodes in the middle of the series airing in Japan before the English version caught back up and overtook it again.

From what I've heard (as I myself have still not yet watched all of the original Japanese versions of Armada, Energon, and Cybertron, and may actually join you on your journey when you get around to watching them), the Japanese versions of Armada and Energon are the better versions to watch. And having seen the dubs of all three, Armada's dub starts off pretty mediocre, but it improves later on. The dub of Energon, however, starts off decent but just goes downhill and never ever recovers. Cybertron is the only one with an all-around good dub from start to finish, and seems to have been given a very similar treatment to the RID dub of Car Robots, in that extra care was taken to make it a more unique experience different enough from the Japanese version in an interesting way.

But if you're looking to stick with one language for the whole ride of the trilogy, I'd say stay the course you're currently on.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Wed May 15, 2024 11:13 pm

Ok, then Japanese it is! Especially if the dub of Armada and Energon are supposed to be mediocre. Maybe that's what led me to lose patience with them? Apart from the whole age / location gap as well.

Maybe one day I'll give the RID and Cybertron dubs a chance. But there's a lot of material to go through. Speaking of I'm over halfway done with Car Robots. Just about to meet the most different Ultra Magnus ever. WAY too many good guys.

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed May 15, 2024 11:27 pm

Also, I just remembered something. You once said you wanted to see what the goofy Japanese Beast Wars Megatron was like. Well, the three theatrical Beast Wars features were fansubbed in English along with the Beast Wars II movie.

Clash! Beast Warriors
(a "compilation movie" summarizing events of the first season but with newly-created dialogue for this presentation)

Beast Wars Metals ("the movie")
(the Season 2 episode "Bad Spark", with a new prologue recapping the first three episodes of Season 2)

Beast Wars Metals: Convoy's Great Transformation
(the season 3 episode "Cutting Edge", with an extensive prologue explaining events of "The Agenda" and "Optimal Situation")

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Thu May 16, 2024 2:30 pm

I watched the first two. Yeah, it's pretty different. I ... don't think I like it. Maybe if I were younger I'd appreciate it more. Beast Wars already had a lot of humor this was just too much. But maybe if I were in grade school I'd appreciate a more madcap Megs.

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Thu May 16, 2024 2:35 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I watched the first two. Yeah, it's pretty different. I ... don't think I like it. Maybe if I were younger I'd appreciate it more. Beast Wars already had a lot of humor this was just too much. But maybe if I were in grade school I'd appreciate a more madcap Megs.

And Japan did the same thing to Beast Machines, Animated, Prime, Cyberverse... you know, all the really dramatic ones.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Thu May 16, 2024 7:30 pm

I heard about that too.

I can get that Japan sees TFs as being just for kids, but was Animated really that far off from their usual fare? I remember it as very jokey.
But I guess it worked out for them, right? Although, if you ask me, they were robbed! Beast Wars, Prime, and Animated were fantastic!

Although I can't speak for Cyberverse because that's a series I skipped. I just started watching it and, like most of these, couldn't get into it. But I'll give it another try. When I get to it. If I don't burn myself out.

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Thu May 16, 2024 10:36 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Although I can't speak for Cyberverse because that's a series I skipped. I just started watching it and, like most of these, couldn't get into it. But I'll give it another try. When I get to it. If I don't burn myself out.

Yeah, Cyberverse season 1 is a completely different beast from the rest of it, bogged down mostly by its having to tie-in spiritually with the Bumblebee movie by having Bee both radio-speak and an amnesiac. Though, the anthology-style storytelling was also something of a hindrance, in hindsight it feels like it was meant as a means to educate new viewers on the modern backstory lore for Transformers. The first season does improve as more and more of the present-day story is revealed, with more of the Decepticons' operations on Earth being revealed little by little, and a series of mysteries on the Autobots' side being gradually explored and ultimately fulfilled by the season 1 finale.

Come season 2 of Cyberverse, however, and the show completely switches gears, doing away entirely with Bumblebee's radio-speak and amnesia, and pushing him and Windblade firmly into the background in order to give everyone else some much needed time in the spotlight. The anthology-style storytelling was gone too, and the show only got better and more intriguing as it went along. Season 3 of Cyberverse is right up there among the greats, and short-length epilogue of a fourth season is pretty fun too.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Sat May 18, 2024 1:55 pm

I just finished watching episode 28 where the Destrons have Fire Convoy and the Autobot Bros against the wall forcing Magnus' heart to grow 3x as large in order to fight. It's supposed to be a touching moment, but I can't but think they could have called upon the JRX team or the Spychangers or the Build team to clobber all opposition. Like, this is literally not a fight they haven't faced before now.

It would have REALLY helped if the writers cribbed a trick from Beast Wars and were able to jam Cybertron communication frequencies. Like, this whole episode is supposed to be about Magnus' character growth, but it's undercut since I know the Cybertrons have a whole crapload of warriors around the globe ready at a moment's notice. Including TWO combiners! The writers just aren't trying hard enough to make the bad guys a credible threat here. The good guy problem feel a lot like that found in BWII, except even more pronounced because the good guys have no hindrances on their abilities at all while in II at least their ship was broken and the Insectrons weren't fully Cybertrons.

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Sat May 18, 2024 2:21 pm

It's an unfortunate symptom of a combination of two things.

First, Car Robots is one of the more comedic series, so the bad guys end up being treated more humorously than credibly.

And secondly is a more cultural aspect at play: In Japan, bad guy toys don't sell very well, so when it comes to Japanese-original Transformers series being made without Hasbro's input, Takara tended to outnumber the bad guy toys by a wide margin, making a much smaller number of them compared to the more numerous amount of good guy toys. Japanese creators want to make and promote more good guy toys as role models for the young viewers, leaving bad guy toys getting the short end of the stick.

Ironically, by simply having multiple bad guy toys at all, Transformers is one of the biggest exceptions to this in Japan since many other Japanese hero shows don't get any bad guy toys made at all. Just good guy toys.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Sat May 18, 2024 4:22 pm

I'm really trying to keep it in mind as I watch, but it severely undercuts ALL the tension found in the series. I mean, there are so many ways to make a small team of bad guys work.

- A stated, have give them the ability to cut off communication. At one point they manage to break the Cybertron Net. It would have been great if they managed to break it permanently. From a storytelling point of view anyway.

- Drones. Vehicons, Sweeps, Seekers, Shakticons, and more - the series had so many drones. And there's a reason for that. If Gigatron had a disposable array of baddies I think the threat level could be upped a bit. Even as a distraction device.

- Power ups. I know we're getting to Devil Gigatron. Not sure how it happens yet, but I know there's a toy out there. But if the bad guys could power up for a short time it'd help balance out the fact that the good guys could summon an entire army.

I get the whole "bad guy toys don't sell", but even Power Rangers have putties and a few lieutenants to balance things out. I'm getting a little ahead of myself in my series analysis, but the problem Car Robots faces is that the Predecons are this small, insurgent force in a heavily fortified Autobot world full of warriors (as opposed to the scientists and scouts of the G1 era). I'm trying to give the show a break by reminding myself that G1 forgot about Jetfire, Omega Supreme, and a whole host of guys when it wasn't their focus episode. At a certain point it feels as if I'm making excuses for the show, though. After all, I have to compare it to the show from 20 years prior to make it make sense.

Ultimately it's a flaw. All they needed to do was have Gigabat have the power to use his sonar to disrupt communications. That way, if he's there at least, they can't summon help. Tension. Why he's not there to help is a problem in and of itself. It's a persistent problem with the Japanese Predecond leaders. It takes so little to fix the "too many good guys" problem, but they rely on us just forgetting those good guys exist.

News Credits: 439 · by **Sabrblade** » Sat May 18, 2024 4:54 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I get the whole "bad guy toys don't sell", but even Power Rangers have putties and a few lieutenants to balance things out.

That's actually one of the biggest differences between Power Rangers and its original counterpart Super Sentai. Power Rangers will make toys of some of the bad guys, but Super Sentai more often than than not can't be bothered to make any bad guy toys.

One of the actors from Ryusoulger even had to import a Hasbro toy of his character's counterpart from Power Rangers Dino Fury in order to have a toy of that character because Bandai of Japan never made one themselves, despite said character having been one of the most prominent villain characters in Ryusoulger.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Sat May 18, 2024 7:50 pm

Ouch. That's pretty limiting. TBH, this seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy on the part of marketing in Japan. To me the villains are more interesting than the heroes most of the time. Usually the motivations of the heroes are pretty clear-cut, but the villains can be a bit deeper. They can be flashier and crazier. A bit more fun. Who would Batman be without the Joker? Superman without Lex Luthor? As a kid I'd have to make believe half of my toys were villains I just didn't have. Seems like a worse situation in Japan.

Of course the old cartoon heroes back in the day are a little bland in comparison to the villains. I mean who wouldn't prefer Skeletor to He-man? They have definitely taken things up a notch these days.

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